Substrate?? Help please

[Wicked]

G'day all
was just wanting some advise (in simple terms please) about what i sould be using as substrate in my tank other than gravel??

[wombat1100]

What do you intend on doing with the tank?

[joz]

Well like with alot of fish keeping basics I tend to go against the norm.
Because I have no under gravel filters I have used builders triple washed sand.
It's white and very fine, the fish tend to kick it about and it settles again slowly,plants are doing well with it as well.Because its so fine the filth doesn't penitrate is but settles on top and is easily removed by the cannister filters.

[Wicked]

What do you intend on doing with the tank?

I would have to have guppies thats a MUST and then im not sure, maybe a loach and bristles? any ideas? but after reading some of the articles on plants its no wonder my pervious ones have struggled or just dropped dead, i have only had sucess with lillies and breeding moss (which i have since found out is unavailable) so im doing away with the underground filter and going with a canister, and maybe a better light, as atm i only have the basic light for the tank atm.

[Wicked]

Well like with alot of fish keeping basics I tend to go against the norm.
Because I have no under gravel filters I have used builders triple washed sand.
It's white and very fine, the fish tend to kick it about and it settles again slowly,plants are doing well with it as well.Because its so fine the filth doesn't penitrate is but settles on top and is easily removed by the cannister filters.
Yes i did read that in a lot of the posts and tend to agree with you about the undergravel filters and if you think about it it makes sence, however im still really really new to the cannister filters so could you please expand on how they would remove it from the top of the sand? and what would anyone know about laterite???

[joz]

Laterite??

But by having a gentle water flow over the sand like a slow current.Anything on top will slowly move towards the cannister filter inlet.

[Wicked]

Thanks Joz.......... yeah this substrate material say if you use laterite before the gravel then its supposed to be good for the plants?????

[joz]

Thanks Joz.......... yeah this substrate material say if you use laterite before the gravel then its supposed to be good for the plants?????


Of course I knew that..:rolleyes:

[Woodsy]

Latterite is basically a red clay that many plant enthusiasts use in their substrates because it contains a lot of iron (which gives it the red colour), as well as many other micronutrients (dependent on the area of collection).
If you want a more in-depth explanation than that, let me know :)

[Wicked]

Latterite is basically a red clay that many plant enthusiasts use in their substrates because it contains a lot of iron (which gives it the red colour), as well as many other micronutrients (dependent on the area of collection).
If you want a more in-depth explanation than that, let me know :)

Woodsy that would be great as i would like to have a nice plant growth and understand what i am doing (what should i have underneath the gravel?) as atm im in the middle of cleaning the current (really dirty) tank and washing the current gravel however i want to go for the layered affect so researching what i should have for the first amount of substrate thanks heaps
:)

[Woodsy]

There are heaps and heaps and heaps of different ways to go about setting up not only the substrate itself, but the appropriate filter system to accompany it. A basic (and I emphasise here, BASIC) planted tank setup would include: a fine substrate loaded with bound micronutrients (eg. Clay soils like latterite, commercially prepared substrate such as those by ADA, or a mixture of gravel over clay or fertiliser balls/tabs); an internal power filter (for HEAVILY planted tanks) or external canister; and suitable lighting (plant selection dependent).
There are, of course, many more options and variations to this, and in most cases these depend on either the rate of growth you wish to achieve, or the needs of the plant species you wish to grow. For instance, to grow things like Riccia species below the surface of the water (and be highly successful at it), you will require high amounts of light (4wpg or greater), CO2 injection and a regular fertilisation regime. Therefore, substrate fertilisation becomes irrelevant. I could go on all night...
What I would suggest to anyone starting out a serious planted tank, is plan it out first. Know what you're going to grow, know what the requirements of these plants are, and know what your budget is. There's no point planning out a stunning tank only to realise that you can't really afford quad T5's or the ongoing costs of fertilisers.
Planted tanks can be as complicated as you want, or as simple as you want, but it all hinges on striking a balance between everything that goes into the tank. I'm not an expert, and I have plenty of stuff-ups on a regular basis, but if there's anything specific you want to ask, I can try to answer it or tell you where you can get a reliable answer.
Alas, it's Friday, and I feel like beer. I'll try write up a description of how clay works over the weekend for you ;)

[Wicked]

WOW Woodsy thanks so much for your answer i really appreciate your help and input..
yes i totally agree with you that the budget is a concern as i dont want to be spending "quote" from LFS $350 on t5 lighting and that got me more confused why oh why can i not just use my current light and place a better bulb init??
and the LFS quoted me an awful amount if i wanted to use latterite so im kinda having to re-think my inital ideas..
Basically the tanks will contain Guppies and bristle to start with and i wanted something like baby tears, moss, banana lillies and maybe val... i also already own 2 x drift wood and some odments that will be in there as well, so really nothing to fancy for the plant side of things however enough for the fry to hide in and for decoration....
the LFS suggested that i use one inch of my current gravel and then place finer gravel (3mm i think he said it was) on top and that would allow me to plant and then the roots to be able to spread underneath, he also said that about 50mm would be sufficient??
ok enough for now thanks again:)

[Alasse]

I have a planted tank. The substrate in mine is gravel mixed with RichGro (aquatic planting mix), that i bought from Bunnings, its cheap as. Though the Richgro needs washing (and washing and washing*L*) before being put in the tank. Then you just top it with plain gravel, and you then have a suitable substrate for growing at the least, basic plants.

[Woodsy]

If you're set on using latterite, put it on the bottom then put gravel over the top. This is an easy way to prevent it getting stirred up and making a mess.
That sounds about right for good quality high output T5's. You can get cheap ones like Hai Yang's or something like that, but the parabolas are rubbish, and from what I've seen and heard you don't get anywhere near the performance out of your globes. As for them telling you you can't use T8's and get results, that's rubbish. Some of the most succesful plant enthusiasts I know have been using the same lights that they were in the 70's. The thing with them is though, it will be a bit of trail and error to see what works well in your tank. You shouldn't have any trouble with the plants you have listed there, except maybe the baby's tears, as most vascular stem plants like that are what we refer to as "sun plants", and will require good lighting to do well. Baby's tears is often emersed grown too, when you buy fresh plants from the shops.
To get to the point, if you can afford the T5's get them, otherwise do the best you can with what you've got ;)

[macmich]

was you in pall mall fish shop today when i was leaving adrian was talking to a couple about laterite
cheers macca

[Wicked]

was you in pall mall fish shop today when i was leaving adrian was talking to a couple about laterite
cheers macca
quite possabily??

[Wicked]

I have a planted tank. The substrate in mine is gravel mixed with RichGro (aquatic planting mix), that i bought from Bunnings, its cheap as. Though the Richgro needs washing (and washing and washing*L*) before being put in the tank. Then you just top it with plain gravel, and you then have a suitable substrate for growing at the least, basic plants.
so remembering im not into the high tech end of this all does the Richgro not go funny? it will just stay alright and not harm the fish? i know that might sound stupid but i had to ask...

[Alasse]

The Richgro does not affect the fish at all, it is designed for use in fish ponds, it will stay fine. It does need a top layer of plain gravel though, as it is rather light and easily stirred up, but once its under that top layer it goes nowhere :)

And the question certainly isnt silly, you dont know unless you ask eh :)

[wombat1100]

there is no such thing as a silly question, just a question that many other people have been too scared to ask in case it was a silly question, now it is asked , all that didn't ask it know the answer.lol
does that make sense? he he

[Woodsy]

does that make sense?
Irony? lol

[Wicked]

lol
does that make sense? he he
lol yes thankyou it does make sence:)

[Wicked]

I have a planted tank. The substrate in mine is gravel mixed with RichGro (aquatic planting mix), that i bought from Bunnings, its cheap as. Though the Richgro needs washing (and washing and washing*L*) before being put in the tank. Then you just top it with plain gravel, and you then have a suitable substrate for growing at the least, basic plants.
Hi Alasse i found the aquatic planting mix and have washed,washed,and washed some more and have placed it in my tank covered with gravel-can you tell me how long you had to cycle yours before it was clear as currently i have what looks like muddy water going on!!!:mad:

[Alasse]

The 2 bags of Richgro i added to my tank took me hours and hours to wash. I washed it in quite small lots and till the water came off clear, then gave it another go just to be sure.

Mine was only slightly cloudy, didnt take long at all to clear, i added another filter with carbon and wool in it to speed the process up. I never got the muddy water issue at all!!

I had at the least 1 1/2 inches of plain gravel over the top of it also, making the total depth of substrate around 4 inches deep. I also added the water VERY slowly so as not to stir the substrate in any way

[Wicked]

Thanks Alasse i washed the Richgro until it was clear at the time however when left for 24 hours it was rather muddish at the bottom of the bag...... oh well its in the tank now..
did you say you used carbon?? im confused :( i thought carbon would take all the goodness out of the Richgro???

[Alasse]

The carbon was only in the tank for a week at the most, i have not dosed my tanks with ferts yet and the plants are growing well, so it can't have taken much if any at all.

Did you wash the Richgro and place it in a bag for 24 hrs? Sorry just trying to be clear on your post there. If so, it may have crushed some of the softer clay pieces, thats why it appeared muddy in the bottom of the bag. I washed mine and gently mixed with the gravel in the tank itself, smoothed out and topped with the plain gravel.

It will clear, yours just may take a bit more time.

[Wicked]

The carbon was only in the tank for a week at the most, i have not dosed my tanks with ferts yet and the plants are growing well, so it can't have taken much if any at all.

oh ok was just a little confused about that as when doing the research most of it says not to use the carbon as it will affect the good stuff in the substrate!!

Did you wash the Richgro and place it in a bag for 24 hrs? Sorry just trying to be clear on your post there. If so, it may have crushed some of the softer clay pieces, thats why it appeared muddy in the bottom of the bag. I washed mine and gently mixed with the gravel in the tank itself, smoothed out and topped with the plain gravel.
yes i placed the Richgro in a bag as the tanks wernt here at the time and when i did place it in the tanks i put it in the bottom and then covered it with my gravel as a top layer

It will clear, yours just may take a bit more time.
yep i hope so:)

[Alasse]

Have you done water changes to help clear it up?

[Wicked]

not as yet as the water is only 48 hours old atm but have placed the carbon in the filters so i will see what happens tomorrow.... Shall post again then with an update:)